AMNA NAWAZ: In a forum on federal agents' use of# force in the president's immigration crackdown,## Democratic lawmakers heard from# Americans directly impacted.

That included the brothers of Renee Good,# shot and killed in Minneapolis last month,## Marimar Martinez, shot five times by# Border Patrol agents in Chicago last fall,## and Aliya Rahman, dragged from# her car by agents in January in## Minneapolis.

ICE agents said they'd# instructed Rahman to move her car.

The administration has claimed that Good and# Martinez threatened agents with their cars.,## Charges against Martinez were later dropped.

Here's just some of what they shared.

LUKE GANGER, Brother of Renee Good: The# completely surreal scenes taking place## on the streets of Minneapolis are beyond# explanation.

This is not just a bad day## or a rough week or isolated incidents.# These encounters with federal agents are## changing the community and changing# many lives, including ours forever.

MARIMAR MARTINEZ, Shot By Border# Patrol Agents: I struggle with the## memories of the day, the initial# swerving int.. the shots ringing out and the burning sensation# as the bullets ripped through my skin and body.

I had seven bullet holes in my body.

I remember# the agents rushing the nurses to finish up so they## could take me with them.

I still felt dizzy.

I was# not able to fully process what had happened to me.

ALIYA RAHMAN, Dragged From Vehicle By ICE: Then# the glass of the passenger side window flew across## my face.

I yelled "I'm disabled" at the hands# grabbing at me.

And an agent said: "Too late."

AMNA NAWAZ: No DHS officials# appeared at today's forum.

For more on all this, I'm joined now by Janet# Napolitano.

She served as homeland security## secretary under President Obama.

She's also served# as Arizona's governor and as attorney general.

Secretary Napolitano, welcome back to the# "News Hour."

Thank you for joining us.

JANET NAPOLITANO, Former U.S.

Secretary# of Homeland Security: Thank you.

AMNA NAWAZ: Can I just ask you to respond.. forum today of people testifying about the use# of force they or their families experienced,## and also the videos I'm sure you have# seen of federal agents breaking windows,## pointing guns at civilians,# dragging people from cars?

You ran DHS.

Is this what an immigration# enforcement operation is supposed to look like?

JANET NAPOLITANO: No, it is not.

And what we have seen in Minneapolis and# in other cities where the so-called surges## occurred is increasingly aggressive# behavior by federal agents.

Look,## immigration is a tough topic.

I know.# I have dealt with it for decades,## but it is no excuse for the excessive use of# force against the citizenry of the United States.

AMNA NAWAZ: You will recall under# President Obama when he was dubbed## by immigration rights advocates# as the deporter in chief, right?

JANET NAPOLITANO: Yes.

AMNA NAWAZ: He logged more than three million deportations across both his# administrations under ICE.

So what was being done differently# then compared to what we're seeing now?

JANET NAPOLITANO: Well, first of all, we# prioritized.

We gave clear direction to## ICE to focus on those in the country illegally# who had also committed other serious crimes.

And that's primarily what we did.

We also# focused on border and border security and## deportations right at the border before# individuals had the opportunity to get## into the United States and settle here.

And# so I was secretary for about five years,## and in that period we deported# about 3.2 million or so individuals.

That's what gave President Obama,# I think much to his chagrin,## the nickname deporter in chief.# But it was a clear prioritized## operation that was designed to protect the# nation from undocumented illegal immigration,## but also to rid the nation of illegal immigrants# who had otherwise committed other crimes.

AMNA NAWAZ: As you have seen, we have seen a# little bit of a change from the president's## administration in Minneapolis,# at least, replacing Greg Bovino,## who was running the operation there, with# Tom Homan, his so-called border czar.

I understand you know Mr.

Homan# from your time at DHS.

He was there## when you were secretary.

What can you# tell us about him and how, if at all,## you think things will change# on the ground in Minneapolis?

JANET NAPOLITANO: Well, I think the switch was# long overdue, because Bovino was such a showboat,## rather than being really an effective# law enforcement leader and manager.

Tom Homan is a career public servant.

He's very# conservative on immigration, don't get me wrong,## but when I was secretary, he was head of ERO at# ICE.

And that's when we implemented the guidelines## that we had begun under President Obama, which# was in the interior of the country to focus on## those who were in the country in undocumented# status who had committed other serious crimes.

AMNA NAWAZ: When you look at what's happening# on the ground, though, and contrast that with## the message we're hearing from some of the# senior-most officials in the White House,## the vice president himself, Stephen Miller,# who we know formulates a lot of this policy,## they have been messaging to ICE agents that# they have absolute immunity in how they act.

How do you think federal agents are# incentivized to be less aggressive## or pull back when that's the message# they're getting from the White House?

JANET NAPOLITANO: Well, it's -- not# only is it wrong on the law.

They## don't have absolute immunity and# have never had absolute immunity.

But just the words that are being used, the# rhetoric that comes from the White House,## from the secretary's office, et cetera, in# essence, gives permission to field agents to do## overly aggressive behaviors in order to# accomplish what they're supposed to do.## And that has resulted in some of the# real unfortunate abuses that we have## seen in Minneapolis and in other# cities across the United States.

AMNA NAWAZ: So how much of a difference# would it make when you look at what## Democrats are asking for, in example, in these# shutdowns -- well, the shutdown is now over,## but in the negotiations over# a change in ICE tactics?

They want things like ending roving patrols,# removing agents' masks, requiring judicial,## not administrative warrants.

Would# those things make a real difference?

JANET NAPOLITANO: Well, roving patrols# are a function of the quota that has## been issued by the White House for 3,000# arrests per day, which is a great increase## from any prior administration.

And they# simply can't find enough of those people.

So they're just running around looking.# And that has caused all kinds of abuse and## the kinds of things that we have seen in# Minneapolis and elsewhere.

Other things,## requiring a judicial warrant, which# seems to be a sticking point, well,## judicial warrants are required when a# federal agent wants to enter a home.## It's a function of the Fourth Amendment to# the Constitution.

There's no difference.

Under the current law, immigration agents# do not need a judicial warrant when they're## effecting an arrest in a public place if they# have probable cause to believe an individual## is otherwise removable.

So if that's where they# end up, that's what the law currently requires.

And what we have seen -- where we have seen# the law broken is an agent going into houses,## not with judicial warrants, which is# a fundamental of the Fourth Amendment,## but with simple administrative warrants.

AMNA NAWAZ: You have mentioned in# previous interviews that you don't## know the current DHS secretary, Kristi Noem.

You## haven't spoken to her.

You did say in one# interview she's clearly out of her depth.

But if you could advise her at this moment about# what you think should happen next to avoid more## loss of life or further aggressive# use of force, what would you say?

JANET NAPOLITANO: Well, first, I would say that# she needs to watch what she says and how she## says it.

She is the leader of the Department of# Homeland Security.

She shouldn't rush to judgment## and immediately say a victim is a domestic# terrorist or an insurrectionist or an anarchist,## when we can see the videos for ourselves, the# American people can see the videos for themselves.

But, in essence, it's giving permission# to those agents who are out there who## are acting overly aggressively, not using# law enforcement best practices to continue## that kind of behavior.

The second# thing I would recommend to her is to## make sure that investigations of these excessive# force cases are done independently, openly,## transparently, and in cooperation and coordination# with state attorneys general and local police.

That is the only way that the department# will reestablish the credibility of these## investigations, since there was such# a rush to judgment at the outset.

AMNA NAWAZ: That is the former Homeland Security# Secretary Janet Napolitano joining us tonight.

Secretary Napolitano, thank you# for your time.

We appreciate it.

JANET NAPOLITANO: Thank you.